Jake Brains: Jake with nootropics

[Evert]

Hi guys,

I've sent you an email this almost a year ago and I was just curious if you guys made any progress on it, even if it's just further research or plans.

And to bring the rest of the community up to speed:
What I would be very interested in is a Jake product that contains all the goodness of Jake plus some added nootropics. Nootropics, or smart drugs, are drugs that are supposed to help your brain to perform better in the short term and/or in the long term.

Now when you google "nootropics" you'll find a lot of stuff, lots of people who tried lots of stuff and have lots of opinions about them. That makes it harder to distinguish which drugs actually work and are proven to be safe and which drugs are more placebos and which drugs are plain dangerous in the long term.

However, if there's anyone I would trust to do their research well on this, it would be the people behind Jake. Just imagine if you could have a shake every day that not only contains every nutrient your body needs to thrive, but also contains extra stuff that makes your brain healthier and perform better than ever.

So I emailed Jake almost a year ago to ask them what they think of this idea. And Casper said that they liked the idea. And that Jake had actually implemented the first step already by adding choline in the mix, which isn't strictly necessary for the body but which does help the body produce the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

So I was like cool, I'd love to see Jake take more steps in this. So that's where my question comes from: have you guys made any progress on it, even if it's just further research or plans?

edit

I just re-read the email exchange I had with Casper last year and he mentioned that it might be more practical to have a separate Jake Nootropic Stack product which would be something like capsules containing all the nootropics. That would be practical indeed, then you could just order those separately and choose to pour them into the mix or swallow the capsule separately.

[Frank_Official]

Hi @Evert, thanks for the question, I'm happy to give you an update on Jake and what we're doing for brain health.

Jake intends to provide all the nutrients that you need to keep your body healthy. One of the most important parts of your body is your brain, so keeping the brain healthy is one of our top priorities. Let me give you some insight:

Nootropics, substances that improve the functioning of our brain are a very interesting field. The demand for products that better our brains is, not surprisingly, huge. Our knowledge of the brain is improving a lot and there are many promising results. But, as it goes when the demand is high, A lot of bogus has become available as well.

Our main priority is long-term brain health. For a nootropic to be considered, it has to be extensively researched and proven beneficial on the long-term. Therefore, any nootropic that only improves cognitive function on short-term isn't interesting for us. Caffeine, for example, a well-known short-term cognitive enhancer (stimulant), boosts our brains for a short while and has a couple of known negative health side-effects. Therefore, nootropics like e.g. caffeine or Adderall have no place in Jake.

Which do? In our most recent update of Jake, we've made some nice improvements brain-wise. We've added vitamin K2. Vitamin K is involved in the lipid metabolism in our brains. Vitamin K1 could do this as well, but the difference in fat-solubility between vitamin K1 and vitamin K2 makes it so that vitamin K2 can reach the brain way better. In fact, about 90% of the vitamin K found in our brain is vitamin K2.

Second, we've doubled the amount of vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 has an enormous influence on our health, playing a part in the expression of over 200 genes, many of which play a crucial role in our brain health. There's a wiki dedicated to vitamin D and neurology, a good starting point.

Furthermore, we've increased the amount of vitamin B12 and added the phytonutrient lycopene. Lycopene and vitamin B12 both help protect our brains in their own way. Vitamin B12 deficiency can actually cause a lot of neurological symptoms.

For some further reading about the vitamins in Jake, check out this booklet. I've probably missed some things here, there's still much more to say about the nutrients in Jake and their benefits for the brain. Regarding further research and plans, we're constantly in the process of research and further development of Jake.

By the way, is there any specific nootropic you'd like to see added to Jake?

[Evert]

Jake intends to provide all the nutrients that you need to keep your body healthy. One of the most important parts of your body is your brain, so keeping the brain healthy is one of our top priorities.

Awesome, that makes me very happy.

Our main priority is long-term brain health. For a nootropic to be considered, it has to be extensively researched and proven beneficial on the long-term. Therefore, any nootropic that only improves cognitive function on short-term isn't interesting for us.

Cool, that's exactly how I see it as well.

So yes I'm very happy to read that you guys are actively working on this and that you're already adjusting your recipes according to your findings. And again when I read your reply I get a lot of trust in your judgment when you do your research.

By the way, is there any specific nootropic you'd like to see added to Jake?

Honestly I wouldn't really know. I've read a lot about a lot of nootropics, but I rarely read actual research-papers because I find them daunting. So I find it hard to know what information is bogus and what can be trusted. I can list a few that caught my interest:

• Alpha Lipoic Acid, for some reason this is the number 1 antioxidant that people recommend to protect against mdma related neuro toxicity. Oh and apparently specifically Na-R-ALA is the most stable and bioavailable form of Alpha Lipoic Acid.
• Oxiracetam, racetams (mostly piracetam) constantly come back in every nootropic conversation. I still have no idea if they are merely placebos, but I think that it's at least clear that they are safe. And oxiracetam specifically is the only one that doesn't taste horrible, it actually tastes a bit sweet. It might also work nicely with the choline that you're already adding.
• L-theanine, the counterpart of caffeine. I have no idea whether this has less side-effects than caffeine. I just have the personal experience that L-theanine seems to be very light for my body and yet does give me a very gentle push. L-theanine can also benefit the people who do drink coffee next to their Jake shakes, since it seems to increase the alertness of caffeine while decreasing the jitteriness of caffeine.
• L-Carnitine / ALCAR, I don't have any personal experience with this one, I'm just curious what you think about this one. I've read in a few articles that it's supposed to work synergistically with Alpha Lipoic Acid, so that could be nice I guess.

And then there are a few super expensive very recently discovered nootropics and there has been close to no research on those so there's no point on naming those.

I'd love to hear what you think about these. O:-)

edit

Oh and also I've read that when you get your choline from Alpha-GPC then it gets to your brain more effectively than just "regular" choline (bitartrate).

another edit, last one I swear

Rhodiola Rosea also caught my interest since it seems to be effective in the short-term (like caffeine) but also seems to be neuroprotective (which is nice for the long term). The only issue I have with it is that it also messes with MAO enzymes, at least a little.

okay another edit, since @Frank_Official approved:

• Coenzyme Q10, again I have no personal experience with this, since this is a bit of an expensive supplement to buy. I'm just interested in what you think about this one.
• Green Tea Catechins, again no personal experience, just wanted to hear your thoughts.

Now I'll definitely stop here, because I'm guessing Frank has better things to do than to research everything I throw at him.

[Rupus]

Wow, this is pretty cool! Never thought that nutrients were so important for the brain, but now I think of it, it makes complete sense. Great to know that Jake is also keeping my brain healthy

[Frank_Official]

another edit, last one I swear

Haha just keep the edits coming @Evert, I'll come back to them by tomorrow.

[Evert]

@Frank_Official, I'm guessing you've been more busy than you anticipated or that giving a thorough response to my message was more work than you thought it would be, is that correct? I'm curious to know if you could give any estimate if you'd still like to respond and if so, when you think you will do that. Would you like to give me such an estimate?

[Frank_Official]

Hi Evert, thanks for your patience, especially since I promised to come back to you last week. A complete answer would be quite a bit too long anyways so I'll go through them per compound. Here's the first one:

Alpha-Lipoic Acid (LA)
LA plays an essential role in mitochondrial dehydrogenase and is known to have a lot of other biological roles, such as neutralising free radicals without becoming one in the process and regenerating other antioxidants (like vitamin C and E).

LA is synthesised by our body but can also be consumed through meats (e.g. liver and kidneys) and minimally through fruits and vegetables. Dietary LA comes mostly from supplementation. Although there is no set dosage for dietary LA intake, the standard doses you'll find in supplements of around 300mg LA/day are found to be safe.

There's a decent body of research done regarding LA, but most of the data come from rodent studies. A lot of evidence is in vitro (in test tubes) and not in vivo (in humans), so it's not as clear how LA behaves inside a human body. Although it potentially works as a very effective antioxidant in the brain, as LA can cross the blood-brain barrier, it is found that it remains there only very briefly.

Following the above, we will not (yet) add LA to Jake. LA is not essential - it is already synthesised by our body. Evidence from trials in humans is too limited and there is no set dosage for dietary intake.

[Joost]

It would be one hell of a next level meal if you'd go all Limitless after, but I guess it would scare most people off really.

[Evert]

Hey @Frank_Official, I really enjoyed reading your first post / reaction to the compounds I named? Would you like to continue with the other compounds I named? O:-)

[Frank_Official]

Continued: The -racetams, L-Theanine and Rhodiola have not been under much consideration by Jake, as these compounds alter our state of being in a way that can be considered negative, even aside from the potential side-effects. As we've not looked into these as much, I can't provide you with much relevant further info. On the others:

L-Carnitine
L-Carnitine is a naturally-occuring dipeptide, synthesised by our body from the essential amino acids Lysine and Methionine. As our body synthesises L-Carnitine itself, L-Carnitine is not one of the essential amino acids.

Our body needs L-Carnitine to function properly and the list of benefits of the compound is impressive. Not surprisingly, as our body synthesises the compound for good reasons. As L-Carnitine is synthesised from essential amino acids, it is conditionally essential: should your diet not provide you with enough Lysine and/or Methionine, you'll need to supplement with L-Carnitine.

As Jake provides you with 40 grams of complete protein per meal including sufficient Methionine and Lysine, there's insufficient ground for us to add L-Carnitine to Jake.

Q10
More or less the same can be said about Q10. The health claims made in regard with Q10 far outweigh the scientific grounds for them. Under normal circumstances, our body synthesises plenty of it. In some very specific medical situations, Q10 supplementation seems to be beneficial. In those situations, your doctor may prescribe it to you.

Alpha-GPC
Choline helps us absorb and use fats, keep the liver clean from fat build-up, it’s required for the production of acetylcholine, a compound needed for muscle control, memory storage and the protection of our brain from the negative effects of stress.

Choline is grouped amongst the B vitamins as vitamin B4, but is not technically a vitamin as the human body can produce choline in small amounts itself. That is why Jake provides choline, from the source cholin bitartrate. Alpha-GPC is a different source of choline. And indeed, research shows that Alpha-GPC crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily, making it an interesting compound for Jake.

We're going to try and see whether and how Alpha-GPC holds op in our shakes. It's notoriously hygroscopic, meaning that it'll atract water from its surroundings, which could cause a problem. Otherwise, you might find it in our next update.

[Rupus]

Love this thread!

[Evert]

Thank you Frank!

[chrispy23]

I'm using http://neuronade.com/en/ for brain enhancements since a few months and i'd say it works very well, but haven't tried to combine it with jake, yet.
Maybe you could connect with them to produce JakeNeuro or something

To quote their site:

Neuronade contains an unique combination of micronutrients. Primarily, we count on divers secondary plant substances, which stem from natural plant extracts. For instance, Neuronade contains bacosides from brahmi (bacopa monnieri), rosevins and salidrosides from rose root (rhodiola rosea), gingko-flavonoids and terpen lactones from gingko biloba, l-theanin and polyphenol from green-tea, anthocyans from blueberries and aronia berries and pantothenic acid (vitamin B5). Pantothenic acid contributes to an usual mental performance and diminishes fatigue and tiredness. Besides, Neuronade also contains Omega 3 from flaxseed oil. Extracts of bourbon vanilla, ginger, lemon grass and lemon juice powder add to the taste. You can find further information about plant substances here.

[Jims]

Kind of wow. @Frank_Official I think you missed the Green Tea Catechins, I'm pretty curious to know how Jake thinks about my daily green tea.

[Frank_Official]

Thanks for pointing it out! Green tea catechins are found in green tea (oh really?), but also in white tea, black tea and other teas. They are the main compounds responsible for the awesome health benefits that tea is linked to. To quote the link that @Evert provided:

It [green tea] has been implicated in benefiting almost every organ system in the body. It is cardioprotective, neuroprotective, anti-obesity, anti-carcinogenic, anti-diabetic, anti-artherogenic [sic], liver protective and beneficial for blood vessel health.

Sounds great. However, the effects seem to be rather minimal and in many cases inconsistent. A lot of the beneficial properties of green tea are only seen in vitro and sometimes in animals, but not too much has been found in humans. Population studies do show positive results, but it's questionable how much is attributable to a healthier overall lifestyle of people that drink green tea.

Interestingly, one of the more substantiated properties of green tea is its effect on weight/fat loss. The main reason for this is that it can block enzymes necessary for the digestion of carbohydrates (and other nutrients). Although that may be great in some situations, it's actually undesirable when it comes to Jake. We don't want to block your carbohydrate metabolism, we've put those carbs in for a good reason!

Should you have your daily green tea though? Yes. If only because it tastes nice and because it's extremely important to stay well-hydrated.

[ferran]

Damn love this feedback @Frank_Official , and also love the thread and the idea, if u get to make Jake for brain i would also buy it.

PS: i'm waiting for my first JakeShake pack to arrive

[Evert]

@Frank_Official, I found a new one that I hope you'll consider: Astaxanthin. It's an antioxidant found in krill, but it does more than just that. The main reason I'm interested is that I've read articles (like this one) which claim that this antioxidant might make a significant contribution to longevity through epigenetics. And wouldn't we all like that?

edit: did some research and I think that 1 to 3 mg of astaxanthin + some phospholipids to maximize absorption would work well. The phospholipids might even help to improve the texture of Jake in general, by making the fats in Jake mix better with the rest of the shake.

[Frank_Official]

@Evert, astaxanthin research is promising. Together with lutein and zeaxanthin, we're eagerly awaiting more research specifically designed to determine the practical effects it has on the human body in vivo. They'd make a nice addition to the lycopene in Jake. At the moment, there have been extensive testing on animals and in vitro. Before we would include a new ingredient in our shake, however, we first want to be very sure that the practical effects are clear and without a doubt only beneficial to humans.

Now with regards to epigenetics. Truly amazing stuff. It is all still very much fundamental research, and we're really just experimenting and trying to figure out which enzyme does what. Depending on the function of the concerning cell, some enzymes have different functions and react differently within the epigenetic processes. It's still about figuring out which molecules, transmitters and proteins have a significant influence on the function of the whole epigenetic process; experimenting with RNA material from different viruses, with amazing results and insights. It will inevitably lead to big steps in our understanding of the human blueprint.

[Evert]

@Frank_Official, thanks for responding! I feel a bit bummed out by how careful you guys are about adding new ingredients for the shake. In a way I understand, of course you wouldn't want to add an ingredient and then years later find out it was actually very bad for human health. It would go against your goals and it would also be very bad for your public image.

And yet I feel impatient when I read about all these compounds that seem to have great properties in the (preliminary) research. In my mind it goes a bit like "if the preliminary research is this positive then the human trials can never have a negative outcome, right? At worst its effects will be disappointingly insignificant, right?". So then I think, why not just add it now and remove it later if indeed its effects turn out to be insignificant. I mean, how often does it happen that some compound seems to have hugely positive effects in experiments on mice and in vivo and then turn out to be actually unhealthy during human trials?

[Julian]

"The test ward turned into a living hell minutes after we were injected. The men went down like dominoes," Khan said.

Hi @Evert, I'm picking this up for Frank. If preliminary research is positive, that certainly doesn't mean that the trials will have a positive outcome. In fact, most in vitro experiments are not nearly as effective in vivo (in an actual human being). Some turn out positive, but only under specific circumstances, or with specific people. Plenty of in vivo trials turn out to have no significant effect. Some turn out to have mix results, and sometimes, in vivo experiments turn out terrible.

Before substances are tested in humans, there will have been extensive research in vitro, and extensive research in animals. Sometimes, it all goes well in the preliminary phase. In this case, extensive animal testing, with 400 times the dose that was administered to humans, had no negative results. After administering the drug to humans the result was quite bad.

Even if things seem to go just fine in human trials, we're not there yet. Some effects are hard to monitor and may arise only years later. One of the most well-known cases of a possible 'good' drug, after in vivo experimenting, is Thalidomide. This sedative drug was used in the fifties by the pregnant woman to ease their morning sickness. Now, fifty years later, we still have so-called thalidomide babies.

You can see where I'm getting at. Simply adding compounds because the preliminary results are positive could turn out detrimental. We're at the forefront of scientific advancements, but only within boundaries of what is well-established and known to be beneficial for your health. Can't be too careful.